Thaksin : “residency card in Germany… 3 letters to the King… 50 protesters killed”

thaksinlefigaro

Thaksin gave an interview (published this friday) to Le Figaro, one of the main daily french newspapers. Title : “Meeting with the Red Shirts heroe, on the run”

I found some interesting details, that I didn’t see elsewhere (mixing of quotes from him, and from the journalist, translation from myself).

-“I will fight until the end. Out of the question to surrender.”

-He’s doing business between Dubai, Hong Kong, Africa and Germany, a country where he says he has a residency card.

-“It’s urgent that the King speaks out”. He regrets that he didn’t receive an answer to the 3 letters he sent to the King.

-“I’m asking also the dissolution of the House, the liberation of protesters who were arrested and the urgent beginning of a reconciliation process between the different political groups. Moreover, it’s important to know the truth about the civilians killed [during the riots], according to my sources they were 50. If not, we can’t rule out new fightings”.

He’s quoting an old proverb : “you can’t hide a dead elephant behind a leaf”.

-“I’ve got some power, I’m popular, I’ve got money, I’m coming from up country. I’m the victim of my own success. This is why the Bangkok’s elite wants to destroy me”.

-What is his goal ? “Democracy, symbol of liberty, equality and fraternity, like in your country, France. Until I reach this goal, I won’t give up”
He makes a pause, before to add : “And I have to get back my frozen assets !”.

UPDATE

Pue Thai Party’s centre for missing protesters claimed that it received complaints that two people went missing and 11 people were injured during the crackdown. (Nation)

This is the party… of Thaksin (ex-TRT, ex-PPP)… So 50 ? Or 2 ? Thaksin has obviously a problem with his “sources”… 😉 Furthermore, the story about Germany is really strange. I’ve tried to find something on Google. Nothing. I can’t imagine the french journalist making this up (why Germany ???). So Thaksin might be lying, or bending the reality.

60 Responses to “Thaksin : “residency card in Germany… 3 letters to the King… 50 protesters killed””


  1. 1 Bedwyr 17 April 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Bombshell.

    Interesting. Still has his eyes on the top job. He is blaming the King for the uprising.

    Bedwyr

  2. 2 YaiYai 17 April 2009 at 4:24 pm

    I am Thai and proud of it. Yes I am also very unhappy with the political sate of my country and that is what it is a political mess. Its men like Thaksin that have caused all the upset caused by their own greed and self-importances, if they really cared about the poor people then he could off built several hospitals instead of buying things like football clubs! I have witnessed bribery with my own eyes police paying people to vote etc. Never the less I believe that honesty will prevail and Thailand will recover and bad politicians will be a thing of the past – for goodness sake give Abhisit a chance

  3. 3 World Insanity 17 April 2009 at 6:40 pm

    All,

    For reasonable translation between a number of languages (currently 41) try the link below (Thai / French included):

    http://translate.google.com/

  4. 4 antipadshist 17 April 2009 at 6:53 pm

    @YaiYai

    your post is a good example of people who blame Thaksin for everything imaginable, to the extent of being ridiculous. it is simply too funny. do you seriously think that EVERYTHING in this world happens because of this “evil monster from hell – Thaksin”? 😉

    this is too childish more like ostrich hiding head in the sand – by concentrating too much on Thaksin you lose the ability to see the REALITY !

    Thaksin is bad – Ok. let him be punished according to his crimes. but what about the rest 60+ millions of Thais ? or does the whole planet Eearth rotates around the orbit called Thaksin ?

    this tendency to swith ANY subject to Thaksin is as funny, as what the author in this article points out, about tendency to dissassotiate from RED colour :

    De-reddening
    http://www.prachatai.net/english/node/1144

    “measures taken specifically against the reds but not the yellows, and especially not the blues, have led some misguided people to assume that there will be some kind of retribution against the UDD and everything red. It is difficult to understand how anyone, under a state of emergency when reds have been declared by the Prime Minister as ‘enemies of the state’, could doubt the magnanimity of such statesmanlike leaders as Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban and his able non-official non-politician assistant strategist, Newin Chidchob…

    The Thai Red Cross is apparently considering a change of name…

    Traffic police seemed to face a more difficult problem in dealing with the call to change the colour of red traffic lights

    Local residents of Din Daeng district have been canvassed on a name change …

    As expected, the private sector has moved with greater speed. Krathing Daeng will be marketed from now on as Krathing Si Namtaan, a not unreasonable change since red gaurs are in fact more brown than red. A number of kab khao shops have chosen to go a bit lighter with the artificial colouring and changed their menus to include khao mu chomphu

    But the National Blood Transfusion Service faced perhaps the most difficult challenge. Their publicity materials encouraging donations had as much red in them as if they were printed by Thaksin himself. They were beginning to think that they would just have to suffer the guilt by association until one of their officials thought of the answer. From now on, they will advertise that they provide only the best blue blood.

    When asked where he got the idea from, the creative official shyly explained that it wasn’t in fact difficult. He was watching the PM on TV and it just sort of came to him.

    I hope that you can grasp the humor ! 😉

  5. 5 James 17 April 2009 at 10:11 pm

    This guy is a billionaire for crying out loud! Why doesn’t he just go away and avoid the politicians trying to crucify him. I’m amazed at how the poor love this guy. If he loved them equally, he should have distributed some of those billions he made off the country back to their poor villages ‘upcountry’. He is slick enough to deceive the poor and uneducated, but the intelligent middle-class in Bangkok saw exactly what he was doing it seems. When you talk to a roti dealer on the street, they swear that Thaksin is a King reincarnated; then ask someone who works in a bank and they will say he was stealing the nation’s wealth.

    Oh well, as they say, “this is Thailand”.

  6. 6 Lloyd 17 April 2009 at 11:25 pm

    YaiYai…

    If you are truly Thai and can write as elegantly as you have then I would hazzard a guess that even though you may not wish to be you are part of the reason Thailand is where it is now.

    I am not Thai but I have I Thai wife and considerable investments in Thailand and its people, my wife is from the region that so many people in Thailand would have everyone belive to be populated by people who are stupid, ignorant or rely on prostitution to survive, yet to me and my friends my wife and her family have the grace and presence we could not learn in a lifetime.

    I do not, and never will, condone violence of any kind however seeing the news tonight about the alleged assasination attempt on a high ranking pro Government supporter I could only think of one thing, those that “live by the sword, die by the sword”.

    If Mr Abhisit is the rightful leader then he should have no problem with standing aside, passing a resolution granting amnesty to all those, past and present, who have been involved in the conflicts and calling a general election. He is in a position whereby he could put an offer of open discussion and fairness on the table yet he chooses not to do so, just as Mr Thaksin chooses to be a coward and not return to Thailand.

  7. 7 ATM 18 April 2009 at 1:18 am

    Let the people vote.

    That is a problem for the Privy Counsel.
    Their candidate usually loses so they have another coup.

  8. 8 thaichris 18 April 2009 at 2:17 am

    @antipadshist

    The issue about Thaksin is that he want’s ALL. He want to rule Thailand, he want to be the most successfull business man, he want to be the richest man of Thailand (and maybe of the world) and maybe he also want to be the best golf player and the greatest womenizer. If you look at the interviews it is always about I … I … I ….

    There is no reconziliation WITH Thaksin as he is not willing to compromize. But there is a good chance of reconciliation including more democracy (which means better representation of the grasroot and poor, e.g. the majority of the Thai) WITHOUT Thaksin.

    The political understanding and behaviour of the ordenary people changed due to the protests started in 2005 by Sondhi L. Sondhi started all on his own but very soon, representatives of other parts of the society apeared on stage, unionists, environmentalists, students. And on the other side famers and urban poor raised there voice. Before 2005 the Thai society was a-political, the youth didn’t care about politics at all. The grasroot people who claimed to profit from Thaksin havn’t been realy involved. The received ‘alms’ but still a small group of polititians decided what is good for them and what not. With the process started by Sondhi, the majority of Thais started to understand that they have the power to change. The entire process will remove the old structures, not realy what the initiators of the YELLOW movement wanted. The revolution will eat there kids (as it will happen on the RED side). I’m sure that at the end of the process (in 5 to 10 years) we will see political landscape with a much wider base and representation out of all parts of the society.

    But this is not what Thaksin ant’s. He want to rule the country based only on his idea’s. He want absolute power. ‘I’m the only one who knows what is good or the country’ – that is his message. And that is why Thaksin as to go – and stay away forever.

    You will see, that as soon as it is sure that Thaksin will never return again, the base of YELLOW and RED will join and they will get ride of there current leadership paving the way for the so-called second generation.YELLOW and RED have more in commen than you think. The only real separator is Thaksin. And the ORANGE (yellow mixed with red) movement will also challange the current government and Abhisit. And it might lead to a totally new government not lead by the ‘old’ class, not lead by the ‘old’ political party, not lead by Abhisit and not lead by Thaksin but lead by representatives of the population of Thailand.

  9. 9 davefairtex 18 April 2009 at 3:58 am

    Very interesting article. For those who don’t read French, try translate.google.com.

    The part about him getting his frozen assets was priceless. “I’m just a cheerleader blah blah it’s really about democracy blah blah equality fraternite blah blah give me back MY MONEY!! Thank you.”

    He was doing so well until he brought that up. 🙂

  10. 10 chinesethai 18 April 2009 at 4:38 am

    If that’s the case, then Thaksin should prove to everyone by entering Germany. He doesn’t need to spread any rumour about his honourable Nicaraguan passport in the first place.

  11. 11 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 4:58 am

    Indeed. It’s really the first time someone is speaking about a link between Thaksin and Germany !

  12. 12 antipadshist 18 April 2009 at 5:42 am

    @thaichris

    I thought we’ve agreed to ignore each other ? 😉

    I have to admit – idea of “Orange” color has also crossed my mind ! and perhaps the sooner it happens, the better – for everyone’s sake. (I hope though that
    Orange Revolution” has no Copyright ? )

    “it might lead to a totally new government not lead by the ‘old’ class, not lead by the ‘old’ political party, not lead by Abhisit and not lead by Thaksin but lead by representatives of the population of Thailand.”

    now, THAT’s what I’m talking about !

    however for that to happen there are a lot of holes to be patched. and the awareness of this need is already evident in Thai media, both on TV and newspapers. for example in
    recent articles on Bkk Post

  13. 13 fall 18 April 2009 at 5:48 am

    50 death? Hmm… wonder where he get that figure.
    Let’s ask Samak.

  14. 14 Som 18 April 2009 at 5:49 am

    Now let me add one thing – Thailand can do without Thaksin Shinawat – and it definitely will.

  15. 15 tom_bkk 18 April 2009 at 6:31 am

    I am German and do not believe that. Getting this kind of ID card is possible for a foreigner so theoretically also for a Thai, but for that you have to live there! Also at the time, he was PM he had not so much to do with them.

    I believe its a hoax from him …

  16. 16 Sahasnai 18 April 2009 at 6:48 am

    If he has a residency card in Germany, doesn’t that apply to the whole Schengen area?
    He can enjoy traveling through most of Europe and buy a few more football teams.

  17. 17 Som 18 April 2009 at 8:33 am

    Why did you censor my reply to lloyd ?
    Don’t you think your comments about the King’s succession is offensive ?
    Let’s see

  18. 18 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 11:00 am

    I’ve deleted your message because it was indeed offensive.

    Furthermore, it’s pointless to put on the same level your comment with my comments about the King’s succession. I’m fed up of this kind of cheap rethoric.

    Let me rephrase :
    -to say like you did “you are foreigners so just shut your mouth” is offensive (to me).
    -but when I say that there will be a royal succession, it’s absolutely not offensive. It’s just a plain fact. Nature.

    Now If you have something interesting to say, to enrich the discussion, you’re welcome. Otherwise, don’t lose your time (and mine).

  19. 19 Bedwyr 18 April 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Hmmm. Someone came up with the old line about foreigners not being entitled to an opinion huh?

    Same ole same ole.

    I wonder why Thais have got no friends in the world… bit of a mystery there…

    Bedwyr

  20. 20 thaichris 18 April 2009 at 12:49 pm

    @antipadshist

    It is nearly impossible to ignore you as your comments are all over the blog’s I follow.

  21. 21 chinesethai 18 April 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Khun Som & YaiYai:

    Don’t get too upset. I understand how you feel. Believe me, when it comes to the issue of Thaksin, farangs are deeply divided as are Thais. Many farangs support the rioters but they don’t dare express their point of view openly. So instead they resort to deride Yellows or Abhisit or whoever that are against Thaksin.

    Visit this forum…

    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-News-clippings-f18.html

    There are as many types of farangs as Thais. The same way as there are many types of Lotus – under, on, and above the water surface. A farang here, not TC for sure, once took his ThaiVisa fellows as mere tourists, bar operators, etc. But having been there reading many comments, I do not think so. Believe me many of them are quite intelligent and factor in morality too.

  22. 22 Som 18 April 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Now we know your methods.
    You distorted my sentences – I never said such things –
    be a man, quote me honestly, show my message and let people witness –
    On the other hand you said more than “there will be a royal succession” – you wrote literally :
    “Basically, the King is 80 years old (december 2007). He’s going to pass away.”
    This is unacceptable words for a Thai !
    So keep your dirty mouth away.

  23. 23 chinesethai 18 April 2009 at 1:13 pm

    (more)

    And I must praise Thaksin in this fashion. Thaksin divides not only Thais but farangs too. This guy is so good at dividing people. 555+

  24. 24 Som 18 April 2009 at 1:14 pm

    In your offensive paper about our country you wrote regarding His Majesty our King :

    “The thai society can’t speak about it. The taboo is total”

    What about your society and your taboos who let you delete our messages ?

    Dare to sign your records – again, be a man sir.

  25. 25 Lloyd 18 April 2009 at 1:17 pm

    ThaiCrisis: Interesting someone would post something so offensive to such a nondescript post, but from your response it seems the response was more the fact I am a “foreigner” making a comment than what was written.

    “you are foreigners so just shut your mouth” is an intersting and often common response among those xenophobic individuals that choose to repress freedom amongst people with a common desire for true freedom amongst all people regardless of race, religion or nationality. It is also one of the reasons so many Thai people wish to travel abroad, there is not only a more profitable future but there is also the knowledge that countries like Australia, America and the UK, I would not include Europe in general as France and Spain are possible more xenophobic than Thailand, offer foreign nationals the same degrees of control over their future as they do those that are born there.

    Prior to the foreign aid and investment that flowed in Thailand following the second world war Thailand was in relative terms a very poor country. Few if any companies in Thailand would survive beyond the sunset if “foreigners” withdrew their financial backing and decided to holiday in any of the other world class tourist destination in the region.

  26. 26 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 2:27 pm

    You’re making your case worse Som. And it’s somewhat amusing… you don’t even understand the irony of the situation you create yourself.

    My blog was designed as an antidote to your way of thinking.

    As a westerner, I know a lot about greek philosophers. It means I know everything about rhetoric, syllogism, sophism… And I can feel that, like many thai politicians, you like to use those technics.

    Now, let’s cut through your last comment.

    -you take one of my comment (“thai society can’t speak about it, taboo is total”) and you just apply on it a mirror. And therefore, you ask me about my society and its taboos.

    -by doing this, you don’t answer to my comment. You don’t praise it, or deny it, or criticize it… you don’t argue about the substance of it. You just (and this is what I call cheap rhetoric), you just mirror it. What’s the point ?

    -it’s a classic evasion trick of people who can’t (or don’t want) to argue, who don’t have arguments to oppose.

    -but as you can see, It doesn’t work. 😉 The subject here on this blog is the thai society, the thai politics, the thai economy. Not the west. If you want to share your opinion, you’ll probably have to go beyond your own taboos. That’s the price to pay.

    -but for that matter, I have to say that you still didn’t provide us with one intelligent comment, opinion… Nothing. Just the scary emptiness of a mind obviously prisoner of itself.

    -Will I let you a third opportunity ? I don’t know.

  27. 27 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 2:32 pm

    See my previous comment.
    You won’t have another opportunity.
    Sorry. Too bad.

    Too bad because, somehow, you are a showcase.

    There is nothing wrong about my sentence : “Basically, the King is 80 years old (december 2007). He’s going to pass away”.
    You forgot the next one : “This is not politics, nor disrespect, just nature…

    Yes the King is 81 years old. Yes, eventually, he will pass away. Like you, like me, like every human on this planet.

    You do understand this point ?

    Anyway, no need to answer, you probably don’t.

    And you are persona non grata now.

  28. 28 Som 18 April 2009 at 2:42 pm

    -Will I let you a third opportunity ? I don’t know.

    Should we let your blog, yourself and your akas (Lloyd etc) an opportunity to take advantage of our hospitality ?
    I don’t know

  29. 29 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 2:44 pm

    You have a point CT : yes foreigners are indeed divided about Thaksin and thai politics. It’s normal and even healthy I should say. The contrary (all for Thaksin or all against Thaksin) would be disturbing and would give an ethnic bias to an issue that seems only political.

  30. 30 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Au revoir Som. You made a nice exit. A last showcase for my gallery.

  31. 31 chinesethai 18 April 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I would invite everybody to this thread.

    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Leader-Sondhi-Limthongkul-Shot-t258129.html

    There is two comments that I found interesting and would give a hint to the situation that is very dynamic now.

    —Suspects in Sondhi’s assassination
    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Leader-Sondhi-Limthongkul-Shot-t258129.html&view=findpost&p=2674180#entry2674180

    —A response to “Election = Democracy” mantra
    http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pad-Leader-Sondhi-Limthongkul-Shot-t258129.html&view=findpost&p=2674534#entry2674534

  32. 32 chinesethai 18 April 2009 at 3:23 pm

    ThaiCrisis:

    These follow the ThaiVisa analysis about suspects in Sondhi’s assassination.

    PAD shares similar view.

    See what Chamlong has to say (in Thai)…
    http://www.manager.co.th/Local/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9520000043594

    See what Sondhi’s only son has to say (in Thai)..
    http://www.manager.co.th/Local/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9520000043592

  33. 33 davefairtex 18 April 2009 at 4:22 pm

    TC, I notice that you use “nature” as a reason why talking about the succession issue is absolutely not offensive.

    I would at this point dare to point out, being of nature does not confer immunity from offense. Many natural things are also offensive. Speaking about bowel movements at dinner – definitely natural, definitely offensive, at least in the home I grew up in!

    Its my observation that Thai people have sensitivity to a different set of “natural” things from westerners. These things are not apparent immediately, but make themselves known over time. I am sure you have run into them also.

    Clearly you want to keep the discourse here from devolving into a mud-slinging flamewar. That is admirable – and appreciated.

    But Mr Som, although agitated and probably not at his best, does have a point. He might well observe your “rude” comments about succession to mean, its ok to be rude here. Thus his objections to your censorship on the grounds of selective enforcement.

    Of course you have the right to adjudicate what is rude and what is not. I’m just observing that there might not be any culturally independent “moral high ground” to be occupied here.

    In other words, perhaps be more gentle with the Thai people who may not get it right away?

    “Dear Mr. Som. We’re here to discuss this taboo topic. It’s a really important topic for the future of the country. I recognize it’s a sensitive subject to you. But I feel we need to talk about this topic and others in as constructive a way as possible, to avoid devolving into personal attacks and flame wars that inflame things unnecessarily. Comments like “shut your dirty mouth” are not constructive, for instance. I’d love to post your response. Perhaps you could rephrase?”

    I realize running this site must take the patience of a saint…but I would suggest that it is people just like Mr Som who this site needs to reach most.

  34. 34 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Well Dave, I wouldn’t have your audacity to put on the same level bowel movement and you know what. 😉

    Furthermore, here “nature” has nothing to do with culture : death is stronger than us, whatever background we are coming from. And it certainly doesn’t give me any “moral high ground”. I will die too. Unfortunately.

    However, I agree that “rudeness” is by definition… variable. I try my best to not offend thai people in general. I mean it’s of course not my goal (I don’t speak during a dinner about my bowel movement for instance 😉 ).

    But the point we are talking about is not rudeness I think.

    How can we have a debate if some people even disagree with the unavoidable consequences of… death ?

    And here, the consequences are likely to be… very important (I wrote this in my “About” and “Why we should worry” pages, in june 2007, as the motto of my blog).

    Furthermore, common sense demands that the thai people start to think about those issues… !
    They have to go beyond their taboos. For their country’s sake. It’s fundamental.

    We all have opinions, let’s defend them, let’s disagree… fair enough…

    But I can’t stand obtuse people. This is why my patience ran out.

  35. 35 Ty 18 April 2009 at 4:55 pm

    ThaiCrisis, you’d be surprised that Som is not an exception among Thais but rather the rule. Our education system has failed so utterly that we produce university graduates who are unable to think independently but have to rely on elites who graduated from western universities to do the thinking for them.

    Many of those elites, of course, have a vested interest in the status quo, as it rewards them with wealth and/or status. There seems to be a growing number of foreign-educated activists, though, who want to do away with the status quo, either because they want to carve out a bigger piece of the pie for themselves, or truly want to see democracy take root in Thailand.

    Most of the people doing the bleeding and dying are, of course, the poor saps who can’t think for themselves but are nevertheless passionate in defending the line fed them by their smarter leaders.

  36. 36 WiseThai 18 April 2009 at 6:12 pm

    Have you ever heard of divide and conquer strategy? Obviously it’s being used in Thailand. With all the arguments I have seen all over the media and on the Internet, the strategy apparently works right now.

    What would be the incentive from someone to go this extra miles to divide Thailand? Getting back hundreds of billion Baht worth of frozen asset is a very strong incentive, don’t you think?

  37. 37 World Insanity 18 April 2009 at 6:13 pm

    THAKSIN FLIES TO NICARAGUA

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=NLetter&id=0ac8c8ca-39cf-43e8-b72f-122193ff1ea3&Headline=Former+Thai+premier+Thaksin+flies+to+Nicaragua

    Thaksin on Saturday left the United Arab Emirates for Nicaragua, where he has been granted a diplomatic passport.

    The Thai government has urged Nicaragua to extradite Thaksin although the two countries have no extradition treaty.

  38. 38 paperback 18 April 2009 at 6:15 pm

    I’d like foreigners to know that Som’s notion that saying “the King is old and may pass away one day” is offensive to Thai values is ridiculous. Yes, there are Thais who think that way. But they have to live with it that a lot of other Thais don’t share this view. If I think about my family and friends matters regarding the monarchy will not be discussed in public because we are afraid of offending someone but because we are afraid of some nutter reacting violently or reporting it to the police.

  39. 39 chuck tan 18 April 2009 at 6:18 pm

    Mr. Thaksin’s is no longer credible. Mr. Thaksin’s problem is not the same problem of the poor Thai. The poor thai try to live decent life with justice and hopeful future. Mr. Thaksin tries to keep his wealth and power. He does not care about the poor but uses them to archive his goal. He has many opportunities to compromise several times since 2006 but he did not. All he had to do in 2006 is to listen to his former mentor Col. Chamlong Srimueng to pay tax about $ 20 million in the form of charity. He did not, otherwise he is still the prime minister and keep the rest of his billion.

    This is a correction of the type error.

  40. 40 YaiYai 18 April 2009 at 6:23 pm

    antipadshist

    You must be very passionate or confused. Obviously you did not understand my English – I said and I quote “Its men like Thaksin that have caused all the upset caused by their own greed and self-importances” I did not blame him for everything. OK my English is not my first language so maybe that’s why you did not understand. And yes I did think that the “ De-reddening “ article was funny, but you can apply that type of humour to any topic – For example look at the state of the world economy you can blame world governments and make funny jokes, but at the end of the day it was the banks that caused all the problems (not sure if my English is explaining this ).

    Lloyed

    I’m not sure if you are English but if you are is that why people in England are losing their homes? and that you are part of that? I take it your wife is from Issan? And thank you for saying “her family have the grace and presence we could not learn in a lifetime” This is the difference between cultures
    we don’t really understand each other unless you live amongst each other and live like each other.

  41. 41 davefairtex 18 April 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Oh no, you did NOT just do that! I absolutely was not placing on the same LEVEL those two things. At ALL. That’s YOU that did that, JUST NOW!

    I’m glad we have that clear.

    As you well know, I was attempting a proof by counter example. Discussing things of natural origin CAN be offensive. Asserting “its a natural subject, thus you should not be offended” is not a valid assertion, because natural things can be offensive. On reflection, perhaps I would have been better off without the actual example. What a minefield!

    I know your goal isn’t to offend, that’s definitely clear to me anyway. You want to bring light to an issue where, as an outsider, you have an ability to see things that the insiders might not see as clearly.

    I’ve seen that when immigrants come to the US. Where we see roadblocks, unemployment, and difficulty, they just see tremendous opportunity. Outsiders often have very valuable perspective that the insiders lack.

    The shadow of succession is hovering over us here, especially with the events of this past week. What happens next? Historically its always been the trouble with monarchy, especially after the reign of a good king. What comes after? And ignoring the subject because its uncomfortable may well produce a suboptimal outcome.

    Nature abhors a vacuum, as they say, even if it isn’t discussed aloud, that vacuum will be filled by someone.

    King Thaksin? I think that’s what a lot of people here are worried about – or for you Roman historians, Dictator in Perpetuity Thaksin. I see some parallels between Rome and Thailand. You have only one (very popular with the lower classes) guy, and after succession, nobody of equal stature to counter him. Sounds like Julius Caesar to me.

    When he marched on Rome with his 13th legion, everyone was terrified to oppose him – nobody would fight Caesar. Pompey ran away, and the consular army that didn’t, surrendered. He was *popular*. AND he pardoned ALL of his opponents once he had won.

    If Thaksin himself were here during the recent crisis, might the outcome been different? It feels a little bit like Thaksin just urged other people to cross the Rubicon, while he stayed on the other side safely. “Go conquer Rome, and then I’ll arrive to claim my Triumph.”

    I guess in that sense, he’s no Julius Caesar. He’s popular, but not a leader audacious enough to take personal risks to get what he wants. Or maybe he just knows the balance of power here a whole lot better than I do.

    This whole issue is a touchy subject. A minefield, as I said before. But it overshadows the entire political life here in Thailand.

  42. 42 ThaiCrisis 18 April 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Dave relax, relax… I was just making a little (bad) joke, and being ironic.

    I would never assume that you would put on the same level… Don’t worry, I’m not going to report you (although I’ve got your IP address). 😉

    You’re right to say that, from an historical perspective, royal succession have ALWAYS been source of tension. Always. True in Thailand and elsewhere… Particularly when the reign is lo long and so strong.

    Transitions can be difficult, and can reveal disorders (that were hidden)…. It takes time after to find a new equilibrium.

    And we shall be humble toward history. Why this time it would be any different ?

    I believe it’s a Pandora Box. I’m really afraid of its content… As I wrote before, the risk is that the factions would wake up (it has started already, in a way…)… I think the situation in Thailand is more complicated than just a binary opposition we see on TV : Red versus Yellow… Thaksin versus Abhisit/military/conservators (pick your choice)…

    And people have to think about it, to get prepared… Before it happens…

    I really don’t want to imagine what will happen and how the people will react when the grievous day will come… It’s scary.

  43. 43 thaichris 19 April 2009 at 2:06 am

    Find a very good article about the current situation under the following link:

    http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/15267/where-thaksin-went-wrong

  44. 44 Marvo 19 April 2009 at 4:53 am

    @TC

    I don’t know if I speak for others here, but I for one would welcome to hear Som’s uncensored viewpoints. It is likely to (already has) provide a valuable insight into what alternative mindsets are out there. If part of that spectrum of opinion is filtered or distorted, then the aggregate colour is changed.

    I understand that the TC blog needs to be presided over by someone with the gavel but would like to see the opportunity for the commenters (the jury or “advisers” if you like) to be allowed to be heard on the matters first and deliver their verdict too. If not for the sake of justice, then at least for sake of entertainment as I do enjoy hearing many of the regular’s points of view here, even if I don’t sharp enough to come out and express my own so often.

    When we have something controversial to comment upon, then true colours are nailed to the mast, from which we all learn something about the human condition, ourselves and each other.

    The problem of offense is not in the words that are being said to us, the problem is in the way our own personal, individual social upbringing has educated us to react to such stimulus.

    What is said my be “offensive” but hey TC, can we let the jury discuss the offense, give their verdict and give, the Soms of this world, the benefit of their collective and considerable wisdom. Bags more fun for everyone 😉

  45. 45 Bedwyr 19 April 2009 at 6:03 am

    I think I agree with Marvo, though of course it is TC’s blog (and a very good one too, probably the best of its kind), and he is going to be the final arbiter of what is acceptable or not. He has sometimes not posted comments from me, I trust his judgement.

    I think we should hear Som’s view. he will either make a point or make a fool of himself. Telling people to shut up and go home though, is unfortunately a hallmark of the non-rational Thai so perhaps he could refrain from that.

    Bedwyr

  46. 46 Lloyd 19 April 2009 at 8:25 am

    Yai Yai: No I am not English however I live and work in England, as well as Singapore, Honk Kong and Australia, as these countries provides me with the freedom and opertunities I desire to achieve what I seek in life, something Thailand sadly lacks for its own people.

    No I am not part of cause or effects of the global recession, people throught the world are losing their homes because like many Thai people they were foolish and borrowed money with the belief the growth of the past 8 years would continue. If you believe this will not happen in Thailand then more the fool for you, Thailand is yet to feel the full effects of the global recession and the aftermath, I doubt you will be making the same ignorant comment in 6 to 12 months as already Kasikorn, Bank of Ayudhya and Siam Commercial Bank are seeking assistance due to their rising levels of “toxic debt”, should these banks fail to raise the capital they seek Thailand will be on the brink of a financial meltdown that will make the 1997 crisis look like a summer picnic!

  47. 47 antipadshist 19 April 2009 at 4:16 pm

    TC

    as I understand and know – according to Thai culture, when you speak about someone’s death while that peson is still alive – it is like sort of you “curse” that person, or wish that person to die. therefore it is quite understandable such a typical reaction as Som has expressed – that such statements are considered very highly offensive, even if it is simple true fact. YOU SIMPLY CAN NOT SAY such thing in Thailand without offending Thais. although from Western point of view or logic, it is nothing offensive – since you dind’t really say anything bad, just a fact.

    perhaps it is sutable to provide another example in this regard.

    yesterday I watched movie “Australia” (with N. Kidman). there it was shown that Australian aborigens do not mentioned names of deceased people. it is their tradition / culture. so, if some foreigner from another country would come to them and ignore that rule – I think they will also consider it as deeply offensive.

    now, of course here there is sort of special situation: because it is not like you would have came to Thailand and started to talk such thing to Thai people. surely you would be arrested according to country law. it is different – since one may say that you didn’t pronounce such words while physically present on Thai soil, within which borders this law acts (not beyond those borders). you said / written these words in sort of “virual place” – on net, in between the borders or beyond any borders.

    of course laws of one country can’t be applied to the rest of the world, although some regulations might exist and apply, or some international law may attempt to mediate.
    in this regard perhaps a valid point is: since the internet is certainly is NOT a Thai soil, or even anyone’s soil – then these laws can’t be applied here. although of course Thai government may attempt to block some web sources for viewing within Thailand – but that doesn’t mean it will be closed for the rest of the world anyway (unless the hosting server of such website is located in Thailand).

    also, it can be said: “particular person was neither invited nor forced to come and read / write on this blog – therefore each person can choose NOT to read it at all” – which would be sort of individual blocking – preventing oneself from viewing it.
    if one may feel too strongly about it (as – trying to make sure that not only himself, but all / anyone else can’t read it anymore) – of course that person may try to do something about it, within the very limited means of applying local law of one country to the rest of the world.

    so, ultimately I guess it can be said, as Bedwyr said – that it is your blog, “you’re the boss” – and as I know it is pretty common on majority of Forums the rule “do not critisize Mods/ Admins”, and for example ThaiVisa is well known for banning ppl for a slightest some misstep.

    therefore I guess in the end it is as Bedwyr said – blog’s owner decides.

    so, I think it is more like a clash of cultures, and I can understand both sides. for Westerner certainly it will not be tolarable if someone tells him “shut your dirty mouth”.

    BTW even though Thai people have such different view about “dirty mouth” – nevertheless, NOT ALL of them have “clean mouth” – as very recent example Mr. Sondhi L, who was almost killed apparently because of his “dirty mouth” 🙂
    and surely even that wouldn’t stop him from continuing in the same manner. even though he is also Thai and supposedly has to adhere to the principle of “clean mouth” ! 🙂

    the decision is yours of course. although you might at least take into consideration the aspects of Thai culture if, as someone has already said here, you are interested to reach to Thais as well. also it might be wise to keep this aspect in mind for the instance if you may come to Thailand. this matter is too sensitive and taken extremely seriously as you already know. that Aussie fella Nickolaides apparently didn’t consider it – although he also wrote his book NOT in Thailand, and published it / sold it NOT in Thailand (correct me if I’m wrong) – despite that when he came here, he was arrested and charged. so, blocking of your blog might be not such a big deal, but you might be marked / blacklisted and Thai authorities may be placed on alert for apprehending you at first cross-point.

    so, as I said – I understand both Som and you, both of you are right from your own point of view. it is a conflict of cultures.
    (perhaps too simplistic example is, which of course can not be compared with the originally mentioned issue : Thais consider it Ok to pick nose and chinese fart loudly in public – while they consider it is impolite when Westerner picks teeths without covering by palm 🙂 )

    so, as Thais say : “it’s up to you … “

  48. 48 ThaiCrisis 19 April 2009 at 4:51 pm

    Oh… come on… now you are talking about “curse” ! ? 😉

    Guys, could we just be rational for a 1 minute ? When I speak about the royal succession, it’s on the political angle, through the political magnifying glass ! I don’t speak of course about the individual, the private person, for Christ or Buddha’s sake ! I think it’s obvious.

    The King is a public symbol. He’s the head of the State. He is the monarchy.

    So to speak about the succession is not a matter of culture, or conflict of culture. It’s just common sense applied to politics.

    We have to remove the emotional part of it. And to keep only the political event.

    And this political event will happen.

    You don’t like it. I don’t like it. Many people won’t like it… But it will happen.

    Now, if people of “culture” prefer to discard it, because they are so full of “differences”, so childish, and so overwhelmed by emotions, fair enough. Other (and I don’t speak about westerners only) prefer to think about it before it happens… so they won’t be surprised… so they will be able to take some decisions, to assess the situation, etc.

    We have a wall toward us. A very large and high one. And we are in a car, running quite fast. And actually, the speed is increasing…
    What do we do ? We close the eyes ? And we wait for the slaughter ? Praying ?
    Or we open our eyes, and we put our brain in overdrive to try to assess the situation, in order to eventually take a decision (for instance jumping before the collision, pushing the brakes etc.) ?

    You decide.

    As far as I’m concerned, emotions, black magic, “curse”, or “different culture”… and all those sweet things that look so sanuk in tourism guide books, are totally out of the picture for serious matters.

    For serious matters, I prefer to rely on my western bias : reason.

    So mister Som will remain out. He was warned.

    ThaiCrisis is not a tourism guide book.

    If people don’t like it (and they are absolutely free to absolutely dislike me)… why are they coming ? 😉

  49. 49 antipadshist 19 April 2009 at 5:34 pm

    right now, this very moment – on Thai NBT channel there is a TV program about alleged killed Reds on Apr 13th at Din Daeng.

    2 reporters were intervied by phone. basicall both of them say pretty much the same – that they couldn’t see, because army didn’t allow them to come near by. 1st reporter even said that wehn he tried – one soldier pointed rifle / gun at him….

    so, whatever his video footage was shown – is from far away, sometimes zoomed in, but not clear what was actually going on.

    today whole day on many TV channels this subject was mentioned or discussed. some said that corpses were loaded on DMC vehicles (“Dedicated Medical Corps” ? ), but so far there is no clear evidence or video….

    would there be any? reportedly, PT MPs said they’ll present evidences in the middle of coming week in Parlament.

  50. 50 KV 19 April 2009 at 9:18 pm

    thaichris
    18 April 2009 at 2:17 am

    I like this comment. Once I personally felt similarly about ThaiChris opinion. 🙂 In sense, the outcome would be something hopefully better for the country.

    Thacrisis: you scare me! I mean about the big wall ahead of us. I am thinking should I buy an open airticket out of this country. I would not recommend any company to invest to Thailand before the Wall issue has been resolved. By the way, is it possible legally in Thailand for the succession to be handed down BEFORE person’s death? So that there could be named the new king. This could do a lot to help the situation when the unavoidable nature comes upon.

  51. 51 George P Tuckeer 20 April 2009 at 1:52 am

    Lloyd said at 19 April 2009 at 8:25 am:
    “as already Kasikorn, Bank of Ayudhya and Siam Commercial Bank are seeking assistance due to their rising levels of toxic debt”

    Do you have links to verify that statement? If so, I’d appreciate it, thanks.

  52. 52 George P Tuckeer 20 April 2009 at 1:53 am

    TC,

    As everyone agrees, the perogative is yours as to how you run your blog.

    It’s perfectly rational to discuss the succession as you’ve done and in the way you’ve done it, because, let’s face it, there can be no meaningful political, economic or social discussion on Thailand’s future unless one brings up that little matter.

    On the other hand, Thai’s reluctance to broach the issue, while irational, unwise and unproductive, is understantable.

    I’m not saying that you shouldn’t broach the subject, or even that you shouldn’t speak of it in the ways that you have. I do however, agree with all those here who’ve said that the Soms of the world need to be heard. They may shine or they may embarass themselves. Either way, they’ll enlighten/entertain us all.

  53. 53 ThaiCrisis 20 April 2009 at 4:08 am

    -KV : this blog is scary because I’m scared.
    😉
    Seriously I am. The “political event” we are talking about could have huge “echo” in the country. Will have, it’s almost a certainty.

    As for your question, yes it’s possible. Furthermore the Princess’s position has been “elevated”. She could take the throne.
    Last point : if the question is not solved, and if there is a problem, then the Privy Council is able to act (to name a regent for instance).

    So to summarize : normally, the succession shouldn’t be a problem. The Prince would naturally become the King.
    But… but… it’s interesting to see that other paths/technicalities have been created, in order to offer another solution.

    That should tell us something.

    But in any case, this event by itself, will have consequences.

  54. 54 antipadshist 20 April 2009 at 5:37 am

    TC

    Re “political event” read intereting alleged scenario :

    “Seeing red in Thailand” on atimes,
    section about “complications” and “insider’s” view 😉

    although lately it looks like Crispin allows a lot of stuff which can’t be confrimed anywhere else (or os it not only now – may be I simply never paid attention ?)

  55. 55 antipadshist 20 April 2009 at 6:16 am

    Fonzi posted new update with reference to another blog about Monk !

  56. 56 YaiYai 20 April 2009 at 7:15 am

    Lloyd – why are you so against Thai? And say things like:

    quote – “ these countries provides me with the freedom and opertunities I desire to achieve what I seek in life, something Thailand sadly lacks for its own people”

    Don’t you think its down to the individual to seek opportunity? Although Thailand supported me in my early years ( and I come from a very poor background) it was me with support from my parents that made me. I currently live in the UK , but have also lived in Singapore, HK, China and Loas and speak six languages although I must admit my writing and grammar is not perfect.

    Quote – “Thai people they were foolish and borrowed money with the belief the growth of the past 8 years would continue.”

    That’s a stupid comment and one you can apply to any country – it doesn’t matter what nationality you are everyone who borrowed money was allowed to borrow money because the banks that put the deals together lied and were greedy and the people believed them that all was well – For goodness sake the banks couldn’t even value the so called toxic debt which was made up mostly of CDO’s and other instruments. And then they tried to get some of their losses back by buying oil contracts and we all know what happen with the price of petrol – etc – It was the Banks that caused the economic issues that we have today.

    You last comment about “Thailand is yet to feel the full effects of the global recession “ is just a ridiculous one – of course Thailand will suffer just like every single county in the world has especially the UK and USA…………..and its because of the banks not the everyday people of those countries

  57. 57 George P Tuckeer 21 April 2009 at 12:01 am

    Even in the ‘best’ of countries, there are two sets of rules: one for the rich and connected and another for the rest. But there are grades of unfairness and Thailand scores very low, even among developing countries.

    To begin with, laws are badly written and ambivalent. They are unevenly applied by a corrupt legal system and ‘enforced’ (I use the term loosely) by an even more corrupt and apathetic police. And that’s just the criminal laws. Commercial and contract law, not to mention public tendering rules and even election laws are an even bigger mess.

    Anecdotal evidence (i.e., your personal success against the odds – congratulations, yaiyai) doesn’t change the fact that only the rich can afford a fine education. The rest are crammed 50 students to a class. Yes, education is a mess in many countries, but Thailand, at this stage of development, should have been doing better than it is.

    For a poor, unconnected Thai, upward mobility is more difficult than it need be. To try to argue that Thailand offers equal opportunity to all flies in the face of all evidence.

  58. 58 ThaiCrisis 21 April 2009 at 12:20 am

    To begin with, laws are badly written and ambivalent. They are unevenly applied by a corrupt legal system and ‘enforced’ (I use the term loosely) by an even more corrupt and apathetic police. And that’s just the criminal laws. Commercial and contract law, not to mention public tendering rules and even election laws are an even bigger mess.

    I recommend the book “In the Jaws of the Dragon: America’s Fate in the Coming Era of Chinese Hegemony”, from Eamonn Fingleton. A very interesting piece. Well… no… a masterpiece.

    He speaks about the “institutional mendacity” and “selective enforcement” (of laws), as tools of control within the Confucian world (China of course, but not only).

    Here are 2 PDF files scanned from the book.
    https://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=5888
    https://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=5887

  59. 59 George P Tuckeer 21 April 2009 at 7:31 am

    Thanks, TC. I’ll try and get that book, it looks interesting. I’ve lived in China and speak the language, so am always interested in developments in, and opinions on, China.

    Unfortunately, China is becoming a model for every two-bit dictator and every group of elite that want to maintain control. Many developing countries, (and in some cases the USA with their lobbyist-written legislations) are drifting towards a system of ‘rule BY law’ instead of ‘rule OF law’. It’s a dangerous development and citizen apathy is allowing it to happen under our very noses. One reason I like your blog is that it is irreverent and angry; we all need to get a little angry because the clowns in power are selling us down the river.

  60. 60 antipadshist 1 May 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Regarding Orange-shirts …

    looks like Bkk Post Today already has a photo of them ! 🙂

    May Day rally at Govt House

    in relations to article :

    http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/142051/workers-demand-govt-help


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Thailand Crisis

Coup, Economic slowdown, Terror In the South... The situation is worsening in Thailand. Bumpy road like often before.

But this time, it's different.

The key to understand the present turmoil is the inevitable... succession of King Bhumibol.


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